HS try-out/score sheet

[Chem]

I have a couple of questions about tryouts/score sheets, etc.  I hope you can help.  This was my daughter's try-out and it was judged by 3 judges.

On the score sheet  they scored lower on 4 categories since last year, one being running tumbling.  A ROTuck last year was a 7, this year a RO HandTuck was two 6's and one 7.  I'm unsure why it would go down. I'm not sure how they look at running tumbling when judging it.

The cheerleaders were told that if they did a standing tuck, even if they touched, they would get points. The team has to have some form of a tuck to try out, but most of the girls already had their running tucks or better.   I'm not sure where the points for a standing tuck would go because there is no category for that.   There is a category for a standing handspring.  Can anyone tell me where the standing tuck might go on the score sheet or would it more helpful if I typed the categories?

 We also noticed where they missed two ½ points of the score totaling another point.   Example her sheet said 210 and her actual score would have been 211.  Difference of 70.0 versus 70.3.  Should she bring that to their attention?   Any help and understanding would be appreciated.

[dmjshriver]

I might be able to offer a better point of view if I had the catagories from the score sheet. As far as the judges scoring lower this year than last, well, it could be a couple of different things. Were all 3 judges the same as last year? Also, the difference of one point is not all that much. I know even when judging competitions if judges are a point different, it is considered to "be an acceptable difference". Only when judges are "way off" would there be a need to question the scoring. Running tumbling is usually scored by the following criteria...technique - the technique of the roundoff, backhandspring, tuck, layout etc. all play a part in the technical aspect, as well as speed, and did they tumble straight, strong, etc. Then there can just be slight differences on what one judge considers "good" or "superior" technique versus another. I come from a gymnastics background so I usually tend to score a little tougher in the tumbling category. For example, I have seen many cheer judges score a girl well on a layout, that I would technically consider a "pike over", where a true layout the body would be in a hollow, laid-out position. So this could be where you see a difference in the scoring. But the judging should be consistent from girl to girl or team to team, whereas a difficult judge scores are reflected lower or tougher with every girl/team, and a more lenient judges scores would tend to be higher for every girl/team. Standing tucks could have been in the standing tumbling category, whereas the start value would be higher than that for a standing handspring. Like I said if you post the scoresheet, I might be able to give you a better idea. Also, the point difference in the total score should be brought to the coaches attention just in case the scores were quite close. However, many times coaches and/or judges know who were the strongest candidates before the actual scores are added up and would have questioned the scores before they were finalized if they felt a "great" candidate had not recieved a sufficient score to qualify for the team. If these judges judge often they can roughly analize the scores in their heads. For example, I usually have a good idea what my team will score at a competition before they compete, unless they have an extremely poor performance. I also usually have an idea how well the girls will do at the actual tryout based on the pre-tryout clinics. There is usually a pretty good line drawn in the sand of who will make the team and who will probably not. Most coaches I know place a fair amount of attention to the pre- tryout clinics. The actual tryouts give the judges and/or coaches a streamlined view of individuals, that are usually fairly consistent with the way they have performed through the clinics. Then there can be needs of the team that go into consideration. Do they need a strong main base to complete the stunt groups of the team, if so the coach might consider taking a girl with fewer tumbling skills, or weaker jumps to fill that spot; while the "flyer" with better tumbling skills may be cut because the other flyer candidates were stronger. So that's why many coaches choose not to hand out score sheets, because the consideration in placing a girl on a team is not always "cut and dry". Hope this helps somewhat!

[Chem]

I might be able to offer a better point of view if I had the catagories from the score sheet. As far as the judges scoring lower this year than last, well, it could be a couple of different things. Were all 3 judges the same as last year? Also, the difference of one point is not all that much. I know even when judging competitions if judges are a point different, it is considered to "be an acceptable difference". Only when judges are "way off" would there be a need to question the scoring. Running tumbling is usually scored by the following criteria...technique - the technique of the roundoff, backhandspring, tuck, layout etc. all play a part in the technical aspect, as well as speed, and did they tumble straight, strong, etc. Then there can just be slight differences on what one judge considers "good" or "superior" technique versus another. I come from a gymnastics background so I usually tend to score a little tougher in the tumbling category. For example, I have seen many cheer judges score a girl well on a layout, that I would technically consider a "pike over", where a true layout the body would be in a hollow, laid-out position. So this could be where you see a difference in the scoring. But the judging should be consistent from girl to girl or team to team, whereas a difficult judge scores are reflected lower or tougher with every girl/team, and a more lenient judges scores would tend to be higher for every girl/team. Standing tucks could have been in the standing tumbling category, whereas the start value would be higher than that for a standing handspring. Like I said if you post the scoresheet, I might be able to give you a better idea. Also, the point difference in the total score should be brought to the coaches attention just in case the scores were quite close. However, many times coaches and/or judges know who were the strongest candidates before the actual scores are added up and would have questioned the scores before they were finalized if they felt a "great" candidate had not recieved a sufficient score to qualify for the team. If these judges judge often they can roughly analize the scores in their heads. For example, I usually have a good idea what my team will score at a competition before they compete, unless they have an extremely poor performance. I also usually have an idea how well the girls will do at the actual tryout based on the pre-tryout clinics. There is usually a pretty good line drawn in the sand of who will make the team and who will probably not. Most coaches I know place a fair amount of attention to the pre- tryout clinics. The actual tryouts give the judges and/or coaches a streamlined view of individuals, that are usually fairly consistent with the way they have performed through the clinics. Then there can be needs of the team that go into consideration. Do they need a strong main base to complete the stunt groups of the team, if so the coach might consider taking a girl with fewer tumbling skills, or weaker jumps to fill that spot; while the "flyer" with better tumbling skills may be cut because the other flyer candidates were stronger. So that's why many coaches choose not to hand out score sheets, because the consideration in placing a girl on a team is not always "cut and dry". Hope this helps somewhat!

At least one judge was the same as last year but I'm unsure of the other two. 
The categories: 
Toe Touch
Hurdler
Individual cheer
standing backhandspring
Personality/smile
Voice/Spirit
running tumbling
group dance
group cheer

The coach doesn't look at the scores of the judges.  They are given to another individual to give to the principal.   So I don't think she can look and question why a good candidate may score low on those.   
Other than 3 categories, she had improved (scorewise) from last year.  Some were pretty good scores.
Thank you for your response.  It helps to know more information.

[dmjshriver]

From your response I take it that the coach doesn't have a say in the scoring or selection of the team, that leaves the judges. Who selects them, are they familiar with the girls or team prior to the tryouts or are they random people. It's hard to imagine that the coach has no influence whether it be on selection/input of the judges or on the actual tryouts. Other than that, you are saying she has improved over last year, however, that wouldn't account for how well the other candidates scores. Even if her scores improved over last year, that doesn't necessarily mean that she would outscore the other girls trying out. I know girls who have missed cheering on a varsity squad by as little as 1/2 point on very competitive teams. I would assume that the standing tuck would be evaluated on an elevated scale on the standing backhandspring category. Other than these ideas, I don't really have any other ideas.

[Chem]

From your response I take it that the coach doesn't have a say in the scoring or selection of the team, that leaves the judges. Who selects them, are they familiar with the girls or team prior to the tryouts or are they random people. It's hard to imagine that the coach has no influence whether it be on selection/input of the judges or on the actual tryouts. Other than that, you are saying she has improved over last year, however, that wouldn't account for how well the other candidates scores. Even if her scores improved over last year, that doesn't necessarily mean that she would outscore the other girls trying out. I know girls who have missed cheering on a varsity squad by as little as 1/2 point on very competitive teams. I would assume that the standing tuck would be evaluated on an elevated scale on the standing backhandspring category. Other than these ideas, I don't really have any other ideas.

I must have worded something wrong.  I wasn't saying she would outscore some of the other girls.  The girls on that squad are very talented.  My question was only...if she had improved why didn't it show in her scores.   It was hard for me to understand why she was scored lower than her softmore year on one of the categories. 
You have explained though that judges sometimes judge harder than others.   My questions are only based on my daughter's score sheet, no other girls sheets.   There are some girls on that squad who would outscore my daughter.  It is a very competitive team. 
 
Thank you for all your help. 

[Kong]

I must have worded something wrong.  I wasn't saying she would outscore some of the other girls.  The girls on that squad are very talented.  My question was only...if she had improved why didn't it show in her scores.   It was hard for me to understand why she was scored lower than her softmore year on one of the categories.

I don't think you worded anything wrong.  The point dmjshriver was trying to make was that you cannot tell why her scores went down.  If there are different judges from last year, they would score differently.  Also, if the judges had seen more talent prior to your daughter trying out, her scores may be lower because their scores were high.  Scores do not have to be consistent from one year to the next.  For instance, if I have a handspring and nobody else has a handspring, I'm going to score higher than anyone else on that skill.  If, however, 3/4 of the squad has a handspring, my handspring would be compared to all of the other handsprings.  My score may very well go down from the previous year.

Kong

[Chem]

I must have worded something wrong.  I wasn't saying she would outscore some of the other girls.  The girls on that squad are very talented.  My question was only...if she had improved why didn't it show in her scores.   It was hard for me to understand why she was scored lower than her softmore year on one of the categories.

I don't think you worded anything wrong.  The point dmjshriver was trying to make was that you cannot tell why her scores went down.  If there are different judges from last year, they would score differently.  Also, if the judges had seen more talent prior to your daughter trying out, her scores may be lower because their scores were high.  Scores do not have to be consistent from one year to the next.  For instance, if I have a handspring and nobody else has a handspring, I'm going to score higher than anyone else on that skill.  If, however, 3/4 of the squad has a handspring, my handspring would be compared to all of the other handsprings.  My score may very well go down from the previous year.

Kong

Thank you.  I understood dmjshiver after they explained it. 
I appreciate all your help. 

[Chem]

 We also noticed where they missed two ½ points of the score totaling another point.   Example her sheet said 210 and her actual score would have been 211.  Difference of 70.0 versus 70.3.  Should she bring that to their attention?   Any help and understanding would be appreciated.

An update to this.  What I was thinking was 2 1/2 points, I was told was the judges cumulitive score of that column up to the hurdler.   7 50 was actually only a 7 and the judge put the cumulitive score next to it.  It was confusing to me because the other judge didn't put 49 next to theirs and I haven't seen this in the past with judges, UCA or regular judges.

It's disappointing that they couldn't take the time out to meet with us to explain this.   Especially since I've had 3 girls go to this school.  One a 3 year varsity cheerleader and this one a 2 year varsity cheerleader.  I guess you're always learning when it comes to cheerleading.

[ucaCHEERalum]

It's disappointing that they couldn't take the time out to meet with us to explain this.   Especially since I've had 3 girls go to this school.  One a 3 year varsity cheerleader and this one a 2 year varsity cheerleader.  I guess you're always learning when it comes to cheerleading.

I don't mean this to sound harsh...but c'mon...the coach doesn't owe you or anyone else an explanation - neither do the judges for that matter.

As for the 2 1/2 point difference...THIS DOESN'T MATTER AFTER TRYOUTS ARE OVER.  If your daughter didn't make the squad by 2 1/4 points then it would make a difference.  But it sounds to me like she made it without problem - why so worried about the final tally?  Isn't the most important thing that she made it?

Its things like this that make me glad I don't coach highschool cheer.  You HS and MS coaches are saints to deal with inquisitions like this.

[che08er]

It's disappointing that they couldn't take the time out to meet with us to explain this.   Especially since I've had 3 girls go to this school.  One a 3 year varsity cheerleader and this one a 2 year varsity cheerleader.  I guess you're always learning when it comes to cheerleading.

I don't mean this to sound harsh...but c'mon...the coach doesn't owe you or anyone else an explanation - neither do the judges for that matter.

As for the 2 1/2 point difference...THIS DOESN'T MATTER AFTER TRYOUTS ARE OVER.  If your daughter didn't make the squad by 2 1/4 points then it would make a difference.  But it sounds to me like she made it without problem - why so worried about the final tally?  Isn't the most important thing that she made it?

Its things like this that make me glad I don't coach highschool cheer.  You HS and MS coaches are saints to deal with inquisitions like this.

Ouch Alum!  I might be reading this wrong, but i don't think her daughter made the squad and she is searching for answers that she is not getting from the school. 

[ucaCHEERalum]

Ouch Alum!  I might be reading this wrong, but i don't think her daughter made the squad and she is searching for answers that she is not getting from the school. 

That isn't how I read it...it sounded to me like she was trying to figure out why the scores might differ from year to year and whether she should raise a stink about 2 1/2 points. 

Nowhere does she say her daughter didn't make it.  Which, if thats the case, the other stuff doesn't matter, right?

Ahhh, I was in a grumpy mood earlier...but still...c'mon...even if she didn't make it, the coach/judges/school doesn't have to give any explanations.  Can't people just realize that not everyone can make the squad...someone has to get cut.  Sometimes that someone will be you.  Its life people.

[Chem]

It's disappointing that they couldn't take the time out to meet with us to explain this.   Especially since I've had 3 girls go to this school.  One a 3 year varsity cheerleader and this one a 2 year varsity cheerleader.  I guess you're always learning when it comes to cheerleading.

I don't mean this to sound harsh...but c'mon...the coach doesn't owe you or anyone else an explanation - neither do the judges for that matter.

As for the 2 1/2 point difference...THIS DOESN'T MATTER AFTER TRYOUTS ARE OVER.  If your daughter didn't make the squad by 2 1/4 points then it would make a difference.  But it sounds to me like she made it without problem - why so worried about the final tally?  Isn't the most important thing that she made it?

Its things like this that make me glad I don't coach highschool cheer.  You HS and MS coaches are saints to deal with inquisitions like this.

I didn't say they owed me anything.  They are the ones that said if you want to get the score sheets just ask and they would explain them. They said this before tryouts.  I asked nicely and wasn't demanding.  I also did not ask the judges anything as I don't even know who they are, nor would I question them after the fact.

As far as her making the squad, sure, if she made it then I probably wouldn't have even asked for the score sheets.

[Chem]

Ouch Alum!  I might be reading this wrong, but i don't think her daughter made the squad and she is searching for answers that she is not getting from the school. 

That isn't how I read it...it sounded to me like she was trying to figure out why the scores might differ from year to year and whether she should raise a stink about 2 1/2 points. 

Nowhere does she say her daughter didn't make it.  Which, if thats the case, the other stuff doesn't matter, right?

Ahhh, I was in a grumpy mood earlier...but still...c'mon...even if she didn't make it, the coach/judges/school doesn't have to give any explanations.  Can't people just realize that not everyone can make the squad...someone has to get cut.  Sometimes that someone will be you.  Its life people.

Raise a stink?   If the school doesn't want to explain then they shouldn't offer it up, imo.   I was confused and only wanted to know why, what I thought were points, weren't added.   
I do understand that some get cut, but I"m going to wonder why too.  That's what some parents do.  That's life.

[ucaCHEERalum]

You have to understand where I was coming from.

If she made the team, the points don't matter...hence, there is no reason to raise a stink (question the scores, get upset, etc.)  Most coaches don't look at the score sheets ever again and I know the judges don't.  Heck we just had tryouts and I've already filed each and every score sheet under the rubish that got thrown out after lunch that day.

Now if your daughter hadn't made the team and you thought that maybe 2 1/2 points was enough to get her a spot...so be it...bring it up if thats what you think is right.  But you (and your daughter) have to be prepared to hear that perhaps she just wasn't good enough.

(I can also tell you that if they've already awarded all the spots to girls...this is more than likely a done deal.  Typically we are only allowed a certain number of kids and we aren't going to tell someone after the fact that, oops, we added wrong, you didn't make it.  That stuff just doesn't happen and boy if it did...whew...can you smell the drama.)

One of my biggest pet peeves is kids that think they are entitled to something...this is how they learn that behavior.  "Well, I got this score last year and I've been practicing for a whole year since then...so...I should have a better score, shouldn't I?"  WRONG.  "Well I'm going to be a senior - I should make the squad automatically." WRONG. 

LIFE, is taking the hand you are dealt and making the most of it.  If she made the team - congratulate her.  Take her out for a steak dinner and tell her she is special, don't worry about why her back handspring was scored lower than last year.

If she didn't make the team the question to the coach (if any) shouldn't be - "Do these 2 1/2 points matter?"  It should be, "Coach, what can I do better next time?"  If she didn't make the team you should be supportive and help her to find something to fill her free time with.  There is something to be said for taking defeat graciously and gracefully.


Legendary football coach Paul Brown said it best - "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less.”

[RPCmme]

Chem cheer mom-
I don't know if you're still reading this post, but I wanted to offer you some kind words as a head coach at the high school level.

Each year at tryouts, I recognize two major groups:  returning veterans and those who didn't make it previously, but asked questions after tryouts.  Around tryouts, I deal with anxious, over-bearing moms, but overall, our cheer families are just trying to get some answers for heart-broken young girls.  Here are some questions that should NEVER cause anger from a coach or coaching staff:

-what are the strengths and weaknesses of the applicant?

-what area should be focused upon for the greatest potential improvement?

If there is a question that is clouding over your daughter (did my teachers give me bad recommendations?  OR  did I do the choreography correctly?), just ask coaches.  Though changes aren't usually made after the completion of tryouts, this could provide closure for your daughter.

In regards to the variation in point totals, it could be that the coaching staff was dealing with a varied applicant pool.  Perhaps last year's applicant pool had less ability, specifically in tumbling.  If this year's applicant pool was more talented, the same ability may not be worth as many points.

As a high school coach, I'm not here to win state or to have all-squad tucks.  I'm here to provide an athletic and wholesome program to interested students.  Students, as well as their families, should expect to improve in athletic ability and skill, as well as improve their overall citizenship.  Anyone who belittles you or your daughter for asking questions about concerns, especially related to tryouts, is not interested in developing an athletically challenging program with strong ties to enriching student citizenship.

[rahrahmom]

Well said and your reply has helped tremendously with a current issue, my daughter not selected due to one teacher evaluation.  Hard to accept, but your post did help.  thank you!